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Entrepreneurial Journey Unveiled: Client’s Road to Success

In this episode of The Real Truth About Business, host Michelle DeNio engages in a thought-provoking discussion with her long-standing client and Biz Bestie, Nicole Cheri Oden.

Together, they delve deep into the intricacies of entrepreneurship, emphasizing the criticality of a solid business plan and the importance of seeking the right guidance and support within the online business realm.

Michelle and Nicole share their personal experiences, shedding light on the allure of shiny trends and the significance of partnering with someone who truly resonates with their vision. They also touch upon the challenges of making tough decisions to facilitate personal and professional growth, embracing change, and seizing new opportunities.

This episode showcases the advantages of transitioning from a retainer model to a Rapid Fire Biz model, enabling more efficient coaching sessions and accelerated growth.

Michelle stresses the need to avoid overwhelm and instead maintain laser focus on one or two tasks at a time.

Lastly, they address the paradigm shift towards data-driven decision making in business planning, underscoring the importance of data analysis, cultivating strong relationships with clients and affiliates, and prioritizing relationship-building.

In conclusion, the podcast dispels the misconception of expecting instant results when working with a coach, instead emphasizing the value of cultivating a long-term, consistent relationship and putting in the necessary work.

Key Points:

– Michelle and Nicole’s journey as entrepreneurs and the value of their working relationship

– The importance of a solid business plan and finding guidance and support in the online business space

– Making tough decisions for personal and professional growth and embracing change

– Switching from a retainer model to a Rapid Fire Biz model for more efficient coaching sessions and quicker growth

– The shift towards data-driven decision making in business planning and prioritizing relationship-building with clients and affiliates


Mentioned in this episode:



Michelle (00:00.871)

Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the real truth about business. I am so excited because I have one of my absolute favorite clients, my OG, my biz bestie here today, um, to share just her journey, um, with us working together. Her journey as a, as an entrepreneur and just sharing all of the things that we have gone through together in our working relationship as biz besties and

whatever else comes up in this conversation. So without further ado, let me introduce you to Nicole Cherie Oden. She is an attorney and the owner of Nicole Cherie Oden Law and Legal Templates and More. Nicole, thank you so much for being here.

Nicole (00:43.89)

I'm so excited. I feel like we've been talking about this for forever, so I'm excited it's finally here.

Michelle (00:47.039)

I know. I know, I know, I know. All right. So one of the things, the reasons why I brought Nicole on the podcast today is because when I say that Nicole's been an OG, I mean that like Nicole and I have been working together for five, I would say five of the six years, six. Yeah. So all six years, right? Like, yeah.

Nicole (01:07.694)

I think we're going into six.

Michelle (01:10.975)

I started part-time in 2017 and I think you and I connected in 2017-18-ish. So truly, Nicole has been with me pretty much since day one. And so we got connected through a group program that we were in together. And the

owner of the group program asked if we wanted to be paired with a biz bestie. And Nicole and I think we're like the only ones actually like engaging in the course. So I was like, yes, and I want to be paired up with Nicole. And we did a coffee chat and whatnot, but Nicole, I'd love to hear your rendition or like, how did we get started working together? Like, what made you take that first step of saying, you know what, I'm going to say yes to Michelle. I want to work with her.

Nicole (01:59.946)

Yeah, so I had recently started my law firm and was new to the entrepreneurship game and new to the online space and kind of just trying to find my way and everything. And so when we got paired and you started sharing about business planning, which was a program that you were getting ready to launch, it kind of just felt like something natural for me. Like that's what I need. Because I had kind of jumped into entrepreneurship without a parachute and without a plan and I was kind of just winging it.

And so the more we were talking about the program, and I think you were just fleshing out ideas for the launch. I don't even think you were gearing it towards like, hey, you should do this. And I was like, hey, I need this, so I'm gonna join. And it was just like, for me, it was just magical watching you and your element was one thing. I just really connected and resonated with the way that you taught and shared and explained things. And like, I just really resonated with your approach. And...

on a personal level, I really resonated. And so for me in business, I like to work with people that I genuinely have a good rapport with and that was important to me. And you just kind of were stuck with me since then. Ha ha ha.

Michelle (03:09.851)

I know. I was gonna say, yeah, I mean, it's been pretty much, I think that's what it was. I think I ran a Black Friday special to the BizPlan program. So, you know, a couple of key points here too, is that Nicole, even though she's been in BizPlanning every single year, like she's done the program, we've evolved the program, but every single year, she's a part of it. Every year, I think I'm not going to run it again. And Nicole's like, what, when's BizPlanning?

Are we doing this planning the first week of December? Because I've got it marked off on my calendar, right? So, you know, it just goes to show like the importance of, and you talked about that a lot, is that having that roadmap. So when, what are some of those pivotal moments or things that you feel are the most, like you're gaining the most out of having the, the biz planning, having, continuing to work together, obviously, right? So there's something there because you haven't left.

Nicole (03:47.575)


Nicole (04:02.978)


Michelle (04:04.087)

I'd like to think it's just because, you know, I'm just so magical, which you always say that but um, what really have been like those pivotal moments for you in our working relationship together?

Nicole (04:14.838)

Yeah, I mean, so when I jumped without a parachute and started my businesses, you know, I was kind of just wandering and I was in that kind of hustle mindset of like doing all the things and being busy, but not really having a plan or direction. And I think we're bombarded with that, especially in the online space, for those of us that do work in the online space, you know, it's like that flashy shiny thing syndrome where you feel like you have to jump on that next best thing. Oh, I can do that in my business and I can do that. And there's no real direction.

So you kind of are left scratching your head at the end of the day, like, where did I go and what did I accomplish? So in business planning, it really made me sit down and formulate kind of my vision, both short-term and long-term, which is something that I had, but I hadn't really flushed out to the point of where I could then build a roadmap, essentially, to get to that vision. And so that was really key for me. And then the consistency, which is why I show up time and time again, because building the roadmap and having that vision,

And then being consistent with it is where you see the growth and where you see the changes. And that was important to me.

Michelle (05:19.975)

Yeah. So speaking of growth, let's talk about, I want to share with you guys a little bit of like where Nicole was and where she's at now. Right? So when we first started working together, Nicole was just launching, um, legal templates and more, which was, so she offers legal templates. She's got a template shop of, you know, client contracts, website policies, all of any policy basically that you need inside of your online business.

And that's evolved too. So I think in general that the whole template shop has evolved in all of the different templates. It started out with just kind of website templates and now it's specific based on niche and different things. So we've added so many templates to that in general. So the template shop has grown, but you also started out your law firm in family law. So, and now you run a trademark law firm with in business contracts. And so,

there's been a lot of change that has gone on and through that journey. So in five years, we went from having a template business that was primarily built online through pretty much Instagram, I would say, and through visibility and podcast interviews and guest experts speaking opportunities and affiliates, which I wanna talk about your affiliate program here in a minute, to now having two businesses, essentially, both that are generating multiple streams of revenue

Nicole (06:26.531)


Michelle (06:44.963)

many different ways and you've completely shifted your focus of your law firm, of the law firm in general. And so when we talk pivotal moments, I think one of the pivotal moments for me, and I know you know where I'm going to go with this story is when Nicole is like, I fired Nicole or almost fired Nicole. And, you know, I think sometimes when you have, if you're working with a coach,

Nicole (06:51.65)


Nicole (06:59.274)


Michelle (07:14.263)

And if at some point they don't give you that tough love, I would really, really question whether or not they're the best fit for you, because I'm not saying that it's an enjoyable place to be and it's the most, you know, it was, it was not fun at all, but at some point you've got to be able to see when a client is holding themselves back and there's nothing more you can do. And we were really at that place. And probably I was, I would say that was what, two years ago, three years ago, where

Nicole (07:43.179)


Michelle (07:43.907)

you were working with a contract as a contractor for another firm that was just inundating you with work and toxicity and negativity and taking up all of your time to the point where she could not build her business any further. There was no further room for growth and that is a pivotal place for people to be and we all eventually get there. I've been there.

where I had a part-time job too that was taking up 30 hours. There's only so many hours in a day and there are things that eventually get you to a place where you have to make a really, really tough decision. And that was a really hard decision for you because that was a good chunk of income. Are you comfortable talking a little bit about that, about like just ending that income stream to dive deeper into your business and where it's gone since then?

Nicole (08:31.958)


Nicole (08:37.502)

Yeah, well, and I think it's important to know that I had been chatting with you about moving out of family law for a while. And it was something that was kind of on my heart and on my mind. And I was consistently thinking about it, but I was so tied to that revenue stream and I was so scared about cutting out that portion because it had essentially sustained like my ability to lean into and grow the template firm because I had that income to fall back on. And it took kind of pressure off of really growing my firm.

myself because it's like, well, I have this of counsel income coming in. Like I'm good. I can take a client here and there. Like, I don't really need to worry about growing the firm. And so it really did take, I think that ass kicking from you. I remember reading that Facebook message and I like was so shocked, but I feel like it was exactly what I needed to see at that time. Cause it was like, look, you're not going to go any further or grow any further. You're going to stay stuck in this cycle of being miserable.

with who you're working with and with the area of law that you're practicing, unless you do something differently. It's like that going in circles type, like you're not gonna get any different doing the same exact thing that you've been doing. It's not working. And we'd spent, I don't even know how many sessions we spent talking about me, like making the jump. And I was just so scared. And so finally, I think that push off the ledge, it was either I was gonna hit the ground or I was gonna fly. And I just made that choice. Like, this isn't my story, this isn't what I wanna do the rest of my life in.

since then just kind of rebuilding and really leaning into the areas of law that I want to practice, that I enjoy practicing. You know, I've not only met that income from the contract, but I've doubled just in my own firm making that switch and like really trusting my gut, so.

Michelle (10:19.867)

Yeah. Yeah, it was, I mean, it's been amazing to see the journey, but I knew, you know, you have to have that intuition enough to know when, like I said, when a client is holding back and it sucks. And it's really, really tough. And it was like, we, you know, like I mentioned in the beginning of this episode, Nicole and I are like, biz besties. I wouldn't even consider us just biz besties. It was, you know, like one of my very best friends, you know what I mean? Like I don't, we don't go.

Nicole (10:42.274)

We're like best friends. Yeah. Ha ha ha.

Michelle (10:47.463)

more than a day much without talking, right? So like to have to, I know, like, yeah. And so like to be able to have to like take that friend hat off and put on coach hat only and really give that tough love was, was tough, but so many things have changed since then. And so also to the way you and I have worked together has changed. And I want to talk a little bit about that. So we would, you know, and again, the evolution and

Nicole (10:50.658)

Well, if we do, we're like, hey, are you okay? Are you breathing?

Michelle (11:16.271)

If you're taking anything away from this, obviously this episode is for case study about Nicole's success working together, our success working together. But there's so many takeaways, and you know I always wanna give you the takeaways on this podcast, is like our working relationship has evolved so much, and my packages have evolved, and everything that we've done, so like, this planning went from being like a five day or a four day workshop to...

a month long type, I think we did it once in like a full, like a one day thing. I don't even know, but now this year or last year in 2021 when we, or 2022 going into 23, it was a 12 month long program. So things have changed and this planning is going to change again next year, you know, for the, this coming year. But one of the biggest changes we made was we were on a retainer model, which was very

just a check-in. Like once a month we had an appointment. It was a reoccurring appointment. It was 60 minutes and then we'd go three weeks without talking and then once a month and it was like always jam-packed full of like I've got a list and so then it was all these action items and then the next month would come and life would throw curveballs. Business would throw things curveballed and again I had to put the co-chat on and say this is not working. This model is not working. I really think

we need to move you to rapid fire, which was an increase in what you were paying me, even though like I am a firm believer in never raising your OG prices. Like your OGs are the ones that stuck with you. They gave you that chance. Like I am not a big fan of raising prices to people that have been loyal to you, but we needed to change how we were working together if we were gonna continue to grow. So we switched from retainer model to rapid fire. And I personally feel like that has been pivotable. Like another pivotal moment of like,

your success because we went from having 25 action items per session to one or two and you actually being able to implement them right like instead of a long list and so how are you like what do you feel has been like the most beneficial in that switch?

Nicole (13:16.823)


Nicole (13:25.578)

No, I think that's true because I am one of those people that has a task list, like a to-do list, a mile long. And I get a sick twisted pleasure out of checking things off the list because I like to implement and I like to do and actually take action on things. And so I would feel frustrated. Like I got to the point of where I had so many things going on and I knew we had an hour, so it was like trying to prioritize what to get through.

And then I'd have things come up in the interim and I was like, well, can I send her a message and talk to that? Like, cause I'm not trying to cross the biz bestie, you know, coaching line. And so now being on Rabbitfire, where I literally like have you for short windows, but when I schedule, it's that on demand type of, hey, I had this come up, we need to pivot what we talked about last time. Or hey, I have this great idea, should I do this now? Should I put it in the parking lot? Like that I think works much better for me and how I am and how quickly I execute.

And I find that, you know, just having that kind of 20 minute, 30 minute check in with you however long it goes, I'm on my way and I'm executing and implementing and I'm able to like share the growth so much faster versus feeling like it's going to be like four months for me to get through all the things that I want to chat about.

Michelle (14:38.459)

Yeah, actually, and I think that's another key point right there is like that is again, why I feel so strongly about the rapid fire biz model and why I want to teach everybody the rapid fire biz model because there's two key points that Nicole mentioned here in this is that one, it's not keeping her stuck, right? Like there is, there's no question of whether or not she's crossing a boundary because that's the, that's the whole plan is reach out to me when you need me, right? Number two is

We are dealing with one, maybe two things at a time. And so when you are thinking about it from a business perspective, most of the time people are getting stuck or you're getting stuck because you're trying to execute so many things all at the same time. And the second our brains become overwhelmed, we shut down. There are very few people that can really look at an overwhelming list of things to do, prioritize it and get it done and get it done well, right? And so when you're with a rapid fire,

we went from having that big long list of, okay, you're working on this, you're working on this, you're working on this and this and this, and it was for all things to, okay, I want you to go do this. I want you to go schedule three coffee chats. I want you to go, you know, we're gonna go update this one thing, or yes, let's have move forward with the affiliates. And so you're really working on just one or two items and it keeps you unstuck. And we have this running joke that every time you and I have a call, it's like the floodgates open.

Nicole (15:39.851)


Michelle (16:03.191)

And literally opportunities and leads come her way like within minutes of us hanging up. But I mean there's a lot of that's a joke obviously, but I think one of the things is it's a joke but it's not. And I think the reason why this happens is because again there's this state of immediate action. You're always in action mode and you're never feeling stuck and stuck creates stagnant energy and stag you know whether you're woo or not we believe firmly in the

having those rapid fire sessions just opens up the energy and it allows opportunities to come into you.

Nicole (16:38.73)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of it too is just because like you said, I'm not like hinging on our next call to take action. Like I have actionable steps after we chat. You know, and I come with a game plan. Sometimes it's scrapped because, you know, you look at me and ask me, you know, what the hell this is, yeah. And sometimes it's like, okay, this, no, you know, and it just, it helps for me to just, okay, I'm on my way and I know what to do and.

Michelle (16:54.943)

Say, no, we're not doing that. We're not working on that right now.

Nicole (17:08.106)

Every single time I either have a new client sign up, I have a new lead, I sell a massive template, like something always happens after, so I just, it's like almost my way of telling the universe, like I'm open, I'm here for it. And you know, I'm here for it, I will take it. It works every time.

Michelle (17:19.241)


Michelle (17:24.367)

Yeah. And you know, also understanding too, that Nicole is a rapid fire client, but also biz planning client. And I think the two combined because I have her biz plan. We meet, I know exactly what she's working on. I know exactly what goals, but part of biz planning, and this is, I think, another pivotal moment that I keep saying that wrong, that word wrong. I keep saying like pivotable instead of, I can't even say it right. Whatever. Pivotal, pivotal, no B in there. Anyway.

Nicole (17:30.9)


Nicole (17:47.294)


Michelle (17:53.047)

One of the things is that in Biz Planning last year, you know we started really looking at your data. So for the first four or five years, it was kind of trial and error. Let's throw this out, tweak it, let's see how it works, let's try this, let's try that, which you know I'm not a big throw a spaghetti at the wall, but when you are trying new things, that's essentially what you have to do. You have to put it out there, get some data and then come back. And so we're moving into year five.

Nicole (18:01.483)


Michelle (18:21.359)

it was time to really, really look at the data. And a couple things that we moved in her strategy this year, which I think is important, and you could probably do the listener, wherever you're listening from, is really taking a look at the data in your business and analyzing where are your opportunities and leads coming from. And so from on her template business,

it was very obvious the affiliate, she has an incredible affiliate program because web designers, copywriters, all these different freelance type business owners recommend her templates, right? So affiliates were a good percentage of where the income was coming in on the template business. And on the law firm, it was coffee chats, it was referrals people. So we double down and put a strategy in play to

Nicole (19:00.622)


Michelle (19:11.367)

nurture and reconnect with the affiliate, which has since what you hit your revenue in July of this year for 2022. So doubling down on that one was one. And then you landed a brand new like up console position for the trademark, which has been an incredible opportunity. And most of your trademark or contract has come in through coffee chats. And I know coffee chats are not.

Nicole (19:20.382)

Yeah. Yep.

Michelle (19:39.983)

your favorite thing in the world from your overly introverted self that finds them exhausting. But let's talk about those two strategies that we put into play this year because I think they've been crucial to the growth that you've seen.

Nicole (19:54.878)

Yeah, I think one of the things that we did differently from other online business template shop law firm situations is they rely so heavily on numbers and that is part of the online business game, right? You have to have a huge audience for these kind of lower ticket offers. And that's not something that I wanted to build my businesses on because I really do enjoy working with my clients. I like those long-term relationships. I like feeling like I'm making a difference. That's part of why I got into law to begin with. And so.

the focus on the affiliates and building the relationships with the people who have purchased my templates and now are sharing them with their clients, I wanted it to feel like an even quid pro quo type exchange. So you get the benefit of having somebody purchase the templates with your affiliate link and you get a cut of the commissions. And that to me, I think is the biggest way of showing trust. I think that there was for our time there in the online space, like people just promoting crap.

for the affiliate cut. And so one of the things for me is like, I have an application process. Have you purchased a template? Like, you know, who are your clients? Like, I wanna make sure it's actually gonna be a good fit and that it's gonna be a good referral for your client base, not just a way for you to get a check. And I think that's kind of brought some really amazing people into my world who have even become clients of the law firm, which has been amazing. And so that focus also was in my law firm, was really focusing on people and who can I have kind of those...

similar relationships with where they'll refer their clients. I have clients to refer them. You know, as an attorney, my clients in business are always gonna have things pop up whether it's an accounting need or a branding need or some other type of area of law. So I'm constantly having to refer people out. So it was kind of just that natural like networking, but making it not feel icky. And so getting on a coffee chat, a virtual coffee chat, because my practice is virtual and just kind of learning about their business and how we can collaborate and how.

how we can support each other and doing it, not so that I'm in back to back meetings all day every day because that would exhaust me because I'm a very big introvert, but doing it in a way to where it feels good to me, it's just become part of my natural practice. And I just have a set number, or sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less that week. And I've had coffee chats that from the beginning of when we started doing this, many, many months ago that have circled back and have a referral or they become a client or.

Nicole (22:16.906)

vice versa, I think of them for a client that I have. So it's been kind of this very people centered implementation for both my businesses that has just led to tremendous growth.

Michelle (22:30.063)

Yeah. And again, that came from looking at what's working and what's not working. And I think that's your key takeaway there for if you're listening is like, yes, you know, she's built beautiful relationships and yes, there's a lot of opportunity there, but the reality is, is that we didn't just create that strategy out of the blue. The strategy was created based on information that said in her business, these are the things that are working and we need to do more of them. And so that I think is one of.

That to me is the best way I love to help and be a guide and be a strategist is not just putting together strategy that says like, Oh, hey, let's try this because there's always more ideas out there than we have the capacity to execute. There's always going to be, but you don't need to execute all of them and you don't need to be all of the places. Social media was a huge place of burnout for you. So we cut way back on it. Right. And it didn't mean.

we're going to cut back to a place of where it's not, you're not doing business, right? Like people are seeing your content, you're still putting content out there, but it's the relationships that you're building and then when they see your content, as I've always said, it amplifies the conversations that you're having. And so just being able to look at that data, I think has been so helpful. And that to me has been the power of the biz planning program and rapid fire combined, is that you have your biz plan, we have a roadmap, we know exactly what we're working.

on and then the rapid fire allows us to implement it and pivot if need be, depending on when things come up or when we see opportunity. I mean, even with, and I think there's always room and that's just, I think why our relationship has gone on for so long and I don't see it ending anytime soon is because there's so many things that we've still yet to implement and there's always ways that you can continue to grow and just change.

Nicole (24:21.771)


Michelle (24:27.731)

for a long time, I resisted that change. And I felt like, and I know a lot of clients feel like, oh my God, I'm constantly changing what I'm doing, or we're constantly pivoting. The reality is, it's such as evolution. That means you're growing, right? Like you can't grow without some level of change. And so I appreciate you more than you know. Maybe you know how much I appreciate you, but I hope to God that you never leave because.

I love working with you and your business and both businesses I think still have so much potential for growth and I just appreciate you sharing your story. Do you have anything else you want to add?

Nicole (25:04.966)

No, yeah, no, I just wanted to say that I appreciate you being patient with me and going on six years of dealing with my crazy and helping me grow and become a better person and a better mom and a business owner because I think it all kind of goes hand in hand. There's this crazy integration. And I think that there's this pattern of, you know, people sign up with a coach and they expect like instant results or they want to meet some kind of guaranteed income figure. And I think

that's kind of the wrong mindset to have. I think that building a long-term, consistent relationship to actually dig in and really do the work is key. And so the fact that we've been together for so long, I think is one of the best testaments to you as a coach, because I think that you are just kind of constantly able to come up with new strategies and new approaches and keep up with that growth. You're not just like, these are the types of people I work with and once they're beyond that, I can't work with them. You grow.

with your clients and I applaud that because I think it's amazing.

Michelle (26:06.171)

Well, I appreciate that. And my goal is always to continue to grow. I think every stage of growth requires a different strategy. And my goal is to continue. And if I ever feel like I'm not, you know, the best fit, then, then that, that conversation will be had too. But my goal is always to continue to invest in myself. And so I'm can continue to invest back into my clients as well. And so either way, um, we are not going anywhere anytime soon. And I appreciate, um,

Nicole (26:29.986)


Michelle (26:33.103)

I appreciate you. And I, you know, I love the rapid fire. I think the rapid fire coaching model. So if any of you are looking for that again, the biggest key takeaway here for you is that stuck energy gets stagnant, right? And that to me is some of, is the best part of having somebody in your back pocket working with a coach or strategist is that there is nothing worse than feeling stuck and when you feel stuck, trust me, everybody knows it. And that is what.

creates that stagnant, oh my God, nothing's working. It's not that everything that you're doing is not working right. It's just that there might need to be some small tweak, but when you are in that energy, nothing can move forward. And so if you are feeling that way, if you're feeling like, ugh, everything just feels so stagnant right now, reach out. I'd love to have a conversation with you. We can do a rapid fire day or go on.

a long-term rapid fire relationship. As you know, I'm not a big day. I love the day rate, but I'm not, as you can tell when the call, you know, I thrive on long-term relationships and that's where you're going to see the most results, whether it's with me or any other coach stick with them, unless they are giving you advice that you just no longer align with and it feels icky. Then obviously that's, I would never encourage you to stay and continue to invest in something like that, but the results come from the consistent long-term.

you know, relationship and that's just what, um, that's my final thought for you. So I appreciate you guys being here. If you need anything, you know where to find me. And if you want to connect with Nicole, we're going to bring Nicole back on the podcast to talk all things, legal trademarks, templates, and everything else at, um, at a later date, but if you want to connect with her now, um, I highly suggest you, um, subscribe to her uncomplicating trademarks podcast, which is a private podcast.

So it's not public like this one. You have to actually subscribe to it. And where's the best way for them to connect with you if they want to set up a coffee chat or just stay in your world, Nicole.

Nicole (28:37.002)

Yeah, I think LinkedIn now is kind of where I'm most of the time now, social media wise, which is I know such a change.

Michelle (28:41.855)

Oh my God. Isn't that amazing? That's a story for another day. Getting Nicole over to LinkedIn. Oh my God. I can't believe you just said that's your main, your main point of contact, but I love it. So yeah, Nicole Sherrie Oden on LinkedIn, correct? And we'll make sure that we link that in the show notes as well as the link to subscribe to her podcast. If you are considering trademarking or have any questions around trademarks for your business or your brand or anything of that.

All those questions get answered inside her private podcast. So I will make sure they're both linked. I appreciate you being here and we will see you soon.

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📩 Join the Brew Crew and start your week on the right note! ☕📰

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